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C20let advanced 'Won't start' issue

3K views 17 replies 5 participants last post by  Ultimatequinoxe  
#1 ·
Its a simple case of no starting after some work and standing. ( 1995 Calibra Turbo DTM No.12 of 22, Original C20LET engine GM head, phase 3.5, K16 Turbo )

I say advanced because I have gone over the most of the basics, including checking the no.1 piston for tdc, changing the cap, rotor arm, plugs, leads etc etc. Checked all vacuum pipes, fuel pressure, low tension leads and so on and on, hence advanced as opposed to silly things like the king leads half off, or its out of fuel etc. Though I'm not discounting the problem being something silly of course :doh:

What I have is the engine is rotating, it nearly fires, but won't catch.

I have spark confirmed, I have fuel ( in the rail ) confirmed, and air. It mostly rotates OK, but seems to hit resistance every few turns ( battery drains heavy as well at this point, but still turns ). I've turned the engine by hand and it's free and easy enough to turn ( especially without the plugs in ), this is one thing that made me think the timing was out at first, with this sudden random resistance - like its firing a plug when the pistons down not up. But there are no pops or bangs etc.

I have small concerns that after turning over for a bit, the starter motor seems to smolder a bit, guessing its a wire or pipe near it thats roasting, can't see anything major going on and moved things away from it anyway, but doesn't seem to effect anything I can think of or see, and the battery terminals get a bit hot as well after a while ( Electrical Resistance somewhere I wonder ? ) But I am thinking this could be fairly normal when you crank the engine over and over. Also, when I take the plugs back out after a load of cranking they come out coated in carbon and wet, not convinced its oil, certainly not a lot of it on the plugs, but all 4 come out the same. I'm hoping its fairly usual when turning a 100,000 mile engine over and over that the plugs will foul up because its not firing. But this worried me a bit, though it makes no sense to me when its all 4 plugs, so can't be something like a valve sticking or what have you. More on that later though perhaps when I get some feedback.

What has been done to the car. When the scabby 'mods' had been done by the previous owner it killed the turbo and flooded oil into the intercooler etc. and the exhaust manifold was leaking where it was not done up tight enough ( and was making a clacking noise under load). And the exhaust was a complete joke.

So whole lot came off, Turbo went away for rebuilding ( and never got it back ) so picked up another K16 for now, replacement intercooler pipes, new FMIC, iridium plugs, K1 leads, cap and rotor arm, complete exhaust system ( mongoose ), all new gasket's everywhere and bolt's etc etc. All fitted, new oil, coolant, oil breather tank, everything checked and rechecked, but somethings obviously not right.

I have spark, seems pretty strong, checked the timing for anti-clockwise rotation ( visually confirmed ) piston 1 ( at cam belt end ) at TDC and leads plugged in order 1-3-4-2 with lead 1 being the top right of the cap when standing directly in front of it facing the back of the car. And I have tried putting the leads in different orders just to be sure. Tried the old cap and leads and plugs, no significant changes.

I have 1/4 tank of fuel ( just topped it up with another 15 litres ) and unscrewing the cap and pressing the valve on the fuel rail and there is a healthy jet of fuel that comes out. BUT, I wondered if the injectors are firing ? Though I took a plug out, turned the engine a few times and sniffed etc and its a 99% certainty that fuels going in. Just a thought there.

Air, The pipework is as tight as a knats butt, I have tried unplugging the AFM, removed the air filter etc. But I wonder about this being a possible cause of the problem as well ? is it plausible to bypass the FMIC and go directly from the AFM to the top hat ?? So thats all I can put for now, more when some feedback comes in. As I say, it very nearly catches, but won't fire up. It seems to struggle with resistance ( and a fully charged battery will die after about a 1 minute of cranking - in total - not all at once ). So close, yet so far and its killing me ! I swear the car has some voodoo effigy on it ! :mad:

Thanks for all your help ! Sorry for any typo's, nonsense and babble, I have a blinding migraine at the moment.
 
#2 ·
firing order is 1342 but 1234 from cambelt to flywheel then from top to bottom on cap insitu is 2 then 4 then king then 3 then 1 check as i believe you may have it the other way around if it is how i read it above be carefull you dont get bore wash try this if it is different if not reply and we will see.
 
#3 ·
Thanks for the reply, much appreciated.

I hate having a bad head, tired, sun going down ( as I'm working in the driveway for now ) and staring at dizzy caps and leads saying " 1-3-4-2....that to there...no...that..to....ow **** !" and not being able to work it out in my head.

1-4 from cam belt to flywheel bit is fine, worked on many a car to remember this.

So can I just check you on this, if your standing at the front of the car, looking towards the back, you look down at the cap, and its pins 2 and 4 on the top, and 3 and 1 on the bottom, is that right ? I hate these caps for this confusion, I am sorry, its really hard to get the image in my head.

I've had it as ( again, looking down from the front ) 1 on the top right, 3 on the top left, 4 on the bottom left and 2 on the bottom right with the king lead directly above it and then of course, back to 1. But this is wrong, correct ?

I don't mind bore wash if I can suss this stupid non-start issue out, I've spent thousands on the car already so rebuilding the engine won't hurt at this point - but I would like to get it running so I can move it to my garage if at all possible.

Many humble thanks for your taking the time to reply, its really appreciated !

PS) Just to add to the above, I just went out to test the timing, swapped 2 leads over to go with what I think you ( jampot ) was describing as the correct firing order. But, all 3 of the batteries I have are still flat, so its going to make me wait until tomorrow to test the timing route.

But as a slight deviation from timing/firing order to the smoldering starter, I'm in two minds as to whether to remove the inlet manifold and all that and check the wires, as I'm sure its a wire thats smoldering around the starter, and I wonder if this is causing ( by arcing or grounding etc ) the batteries to die rather quickly and the random power drains when turning the engine over ( as there is no abnormal mechanical resistance ), though I know the timing being wrong might do that. But either way, if the new timing layout has no effect, I shall look to getting to the back of the starter and see whats smoldering ( after a lot of cranking ) and repair it none the less.
 
#4 ·
Sorry mate forgot you are an obviouse exsquirt on the matter! There are other manufactures out there that run number 4 cylinder at cambelt end so glad we have got that sorted... You have it upside down 2 is top right. 4 is top left. king lead 3 is bottom left 1 is bottom right if that suits you better

Regarding bore wash you should be worried bore wash is when fuel cleans the oil film from your cylinder walls when this happens you loose compression but worse still your rings still run up and down on the bore no oil no lube = f#ck#d cylinders, Dont worry about bore wash though.
Put your leads on the right way and have a go, If still not good or sorts it let us know J.
 
#5 ·
Cheers ! Don't worry, I'm not expert, I just aim not to make out I'm a super pro mechanic when I put threads up in case I am wrong :) But it pays off to establish what levels of knowledge we are working with to avoid saying to much, or not enough, if you get my drift. So your patients and view points are appreciated.

I should have a charged battery at some point tomorrow so I can test the timing/lead/firing order, and I have high hopes on that being my stumbling block because other than the smoldering starter thing, everything was fine ( and the cars had close on to 15K spent on it during its life ) and I've gone over everything, and put bits back the way they were before etc etc etc. But timing is something that can throw some ( like me ) totally off track.:confused:

After this I intend to dump the new oil I just put in because I can't be sure the oil that was in it was any good before, seeing as the turbo was a mess inside ( bearings pitted and coked up ) so I can abuse the oil I just put in and use it to sort of flush the engine through ( now likely with petrol contamination ). I'd be pretty annoyed if I mess the bores or rings up, but so long as I know what the problem is, I don't mind so much - its the problems that hide from me that I despise :mad:

I'll post up more when I've made some sort of progress tomorrow. Thanks again, really do appreciate the help !:nod:
 
#8 ·
Yeah once running drop oil you can have detonation under piston different story and I have never come across it but have heard.
Eh?

Right, plopped the battery on this afternoon, went for a turning over, but the starter wouldn't engage until I flicked the ignition switch ( for starting ) a fair few times, then it very lazily started cranking, then picked up the pace a bit, car was getting close to starting bu the smoldering was getting to risky, so I felt at that point, no matter what, I need to sort that out.

So no start today, same as was.

But just got back in from stripping the inlet manifold off and taking the starter motor off with its loom. The main power feed on the back of the solenoid was notably loose, not just the wire but the actual post as well, and its all nicely cooked ( the stud and nut is a nice light baked brown ) and the casing from the other wires near by has melted. The tiny bit of earth wire between the solenoid and motor looks naff as well.

So we know whats smoldering, and at this point, its worth doing anyway - in some ways it could be the problem, in other ways maybe not - but has to be done anyway. I'd like to think its been the issue all along ( apart from the timing :doh:.

I'm now looking out for another starter ( that works ) with the loom ( in tact, not snipped ) for the fastest replacement route so I can try starting again. If anyones got anything - I'm all ears ! :nod:

Theres a few little jobs I can see need doing while the manifolds off, cleaning it, redo some pipes and wires etc. Also the sloppy gear linkage is now exposed - SO if anyone has any recommendations for what else I can attack while the manifolds off, let me know :D

Many thanks again for the feedback !:beer:
Jesus my eyes hurt from all that. Check earths from battery to block, gearbox to chassis leg, alternator to inlet mani. Start at the top......Do you have an engine management light on with ign? what does it do whilst you are cranking it over?
 
#7 ·
Right, plopped the battery on this afternoon, went for a turning over, but the starter wouldn't engage until I flicked the ignition switch ( for starting ) a fair few times, then it very lazily started cranking, then picked up the pace a bit, car was getting close to starting bu the smoldering was getting to risky, so I felt at that point, no matter what, I need to sort that out.

So no start today, same as was.

But just got back in from stripping the inlet manifold off and taking the starter motor off with its loom. The main power feed on the back of the solenoid was notably loose, not just the wire but the actual post as well, and its all nicely cooked ( the stud and nut is a nice light baked brown ) and the casing from the other wires near by has melted. The tiny bit of earth wire between the solenoid and motor looks naff as well.

So we know whats smoldering, and at this point, its worth doing anyway - in some ways it could be the problem, in other ways maybe not - but has to be done anyway. I'd like to think its been the issue all along ( apart from the timing :doh:.

I'm now looking out for another starter ( that works ) with the loom ( in tact, not snipped ) for the fastest replacement route so I can try starting again. If anyones got anything - I'm all ears ! :nod:

Theres a few little jobs I can see need doing while the manifolds off, cleaning it, redo some pipes and wires etc. Also the sloppy gear linkage is now exposed - SO if anyone has any recommendations for what else I can attack while the manifolds off, let me know :D

Many thanks again for the feedback !:beer:
 
#9 ·
lmao, yer lots of info, but its either a couple of big blocks of it, or 5 times more replies when someone asks something I didn't put in. Sorry about that.

Done fairly thorough checks on the earths, and previously ( before removing the inlet manifold ) I tried a few different technique's for earthing, just to check if it was a bad earth causing the non-start.

The post in the solenoid of the starter is definitely loose, and the main wire is split and half embedded in the casing and other wires. So I've posted up an urgent 'wanted' in the classified's for a starter motor and starter loom. Starters easy enough to get, but the loom isn't going to be so easy :(

I will do some extensive checks during the course of refitting everything, including the earths and other wires.

EML comes on when the ignitions on, goes out when cranking.

Thanks for reading !
 
#12 ·
Yes in deed, I have put the firing order in the way you described ( IE the correct way ). But there was no way of knowing if its the problem yet or not until I replace the starter and loom as it was arching before and sapping most of my battery power&cooking the nearby wires in the process.

So retests now are on hold until I obtain the starter and loom.

I'll keep things updated as new things develop.:cool:
 
#14 ·
Good bit of info there, thanks !

Starter is already off in my case, stripped the inlet manifold off etc, clean it all up while I'm at it, maybe try and tighten the gear linkage up if I can and whatever else I can do while I wait for a replacement starter and loom. Thing is with the starter is the actual post that the main power lead goes on to is loose, so most likely its broken inside the solenoid and may have been what caused the lead to work its way loose, and thus the arcing and burning and increase in belief that my car hates me. ( weeks and weeks of work and hundreds of pounds with not even a running engine to show for it as yet...most depressing ).
 
#15 ·
Might be a daft question, but have you put the coil lead in the middle of the distributor cap??

Do you have the black plastic bit that fits over the distributor cap because this will tell you which lead goes to which cylinder.

Also is the dizzy and rotor arm from the same manufacturer ? I've got Halfords ones on mine and runs fine, original are Bosch.
 
#16 ·
When you checked that the no1 piston was at top dead centre, did you check that the engine was on the compression stroke? If it is a full turn out, then it will never start. Put your finger over no1 piston plug hole, having removed all the plugs, turn the engine back a half turn, then move it forward again towards tdc. You should feel the compression on your finger, used to be known as blow off, don't know the new term. If you do not feel compression on approaching tdc. then your engine is out 180 degrees, which is a full turn.
 
#17 ·
I did try rotating an extra 180 degrees before, and if I now have the firing order correct on the leads then it should be timed correctly, but, got to wait for the replacement starter before I can try again and being a bank holiday weekend, not going to know until the end of next week I should think. :(

Coil/king lead is in the middle post of the cap where it should be, that is the only thing I was sure of when popping the other leads on the cap. Its a typical orange cap with a matching rotor arm, there are now some tiny marks on the contacts to show the rotor arm is the right size to the cap and there is sufficient contact. No black cover on the cap when I got the car, and along with one of these - I'm keen to get hold of the plastic internal cover that goes in between the cap and the dizzy ( some call it a moisture barrier or disc ).

More updates when the starters on and the inlet manifold rebuilt over it.

Cheers ! :cool:
 
#18 ·
Greetings !

Further progress in the tales of the cursed Calibra.

Replacement starter & loom arrived yesterday, all of which was rather disappointing, but this afternoon I redid the loom myself and put everything back together, the result being it fired up and runs OK.

Down side is ( not to different to how it was before to be honest ) has a suspect clattering and smoke. The smoke is a fair amount, but not a huge amount and emits on idle and with revs increased. I'm thinking rings, and thought that might be an issue before anyway as it was smoking on idle before, though not quiet as much as it is now.

I'm going for a compression test next, would that be a logical step at this point ? And just in case, can anyone sum up just how bad changing the rings can be. Maybe I should just do a complete rebuild seeing as I have done pretty much everything else on this already :(.........anyone want a DTM Turbo ? lol

Thanks again for the previous support !