Z20LET oil pump potential near faliure

[Vinci]

They don't, it makes the oil far too durable. Teflon is probably bad for the world economy since everything lubed with it lasts so ridiculously long. It's only good for the economy once you sell it in a product at very low concentrations. I don't know any brand of commercial product with high concentrations of teflon, only industrial brands that sell only to professionals to do their maintenance jobs with it.

How can you tell? Teflon has a milky creamy colour and not a single bicycle 'teflon' product is this colour, it's just transparent fluid...

Here's how the pure goods look:


Mountainbike chains usually last about 1500 kilometers with any available maintenance products and under heavy use, with finlube it will last 6000 kilometers. I've worn enough sets to know the difference. You'll definitely agree the quality is in a different league once you've used it yourself. It's nothing to have an opinion on until you have tried it really.

[mirpur]

i change my oil after 3 kmiles or 4 months, the 4 months normally comes first, so id need to add it on each change.
How much do you get in the bottle you purchase

[Vinci]

You can definitely prolong the intervals with it, it should be possible to have it in about four times as long.

The bottle is pretty small, i'd indeed say 100ml, but let's face it, any drop of it will help smoothen the lubrication of your engine. Common (high quality) oils are often also doped with such additives, but also in a rather homeopathic dosage.

[Brian_S]

It is a waste of time changing oil at 3k or 4month intervals, that's just ridiculous. If I changed mine every 2k miles would I protect my engine more than you? No.

Dewis, bad luck with it! I feel your pain as I've been there many a time. These pumps do not need teflon additives to work effectively, they are OEM items designed to work for tens of thousands of miles. With your state of tune I would stick to a standard oil without additives! The oil has to do a lot more than simply provide wear resistance, it has to survive the nasty environments of the turbo and the big end bearings where the shock loadings require bloody good oils. What oils have you been using?

I would check everything methodically. It took me ages to discover the problems with my oil system although it's a bit different as it's a dry sump system, and I was running something that ThinkAuto specifically say not to run together in their catalogue! lmao so D'oh!

[Vinci]

I'm sorry, but it is exactly what you describe that will make you benefit from such an additive. It's not just 'bloody good oils'. As I said these bloody good oils already rely on such additives.

[Tathan]

DuPont who own the Teflon brand name refused to let it be used on engine oil and tried to refuse to sell it to the companies as well because there is no evidence that PTFE reduces engine wear.

[DarrenH]

a lot more than simply provide wear resistance, it has to survive the nasty environments of the turbo and the big end bearings where the shock loadings...

and cool the engine (front line) and remove/suspend/ all the abrassive and corrsive byproducts of combustion from cylinder walls, survive extreme heat cycles.

i wouldnt normally dissagree with you, but these are the reasons (in my opinion) that there are no downsides to halving the normal service interval for oil (other than cost)

[dewismotorsport]

Brian I have been using GM 10/40 but now i've just put in Motul 300V so has a better oil to cope with my demands, also I won't be changing as regular as 3K as at £75 a oil change I'd be broke, although if it's all track day miles then will probably be less

[Brian_S]

and cool the engine (front line) and remove/suspend/ all the abrassive and corrsive byproducts of combustion from cylinder walls, survive extreme heat cycles.

i wouldnt normally dissagree with you, but these are the reasons (in my opinion) that there are no downsides to halving the normal service interval for oil (other than cost)

I did not say there were any downsides, I just said that I think it's ridiculous; In the main it was the "or 4 months" clause that got me thinking it was so. Everyone has a point they think is ridiculous - 100miles or every 3 days, again no downsides, but more people will find that ridiculous.

Knowing when to change your oil is a better skill than blanket mileage/age rules.

Brian I have been using GM 10/40 but now i've just put in Motul 300V so has a better oil to cope with my demands, also I won't be changing as regular as 3K as at £75 a oil change I'd be broke, although if it's all track day miles then will probably be less

Yep GM10/40 is not something I'd want to run in your engine, you'll be much better off with a better oil. I would say 3k trackdays miles on a turbo engine is definitely a bit much. A trackday session will roast the nuts off the oil. I used to change the oil in my (pretty standard) MR2 turbo after a couple of trackdays, usually about 3 or so. But they would be full-day events, so quite a few sessions.

I would personally be thinking about using Millers CFS 10W60 in your engine. Good luck with it anyway!

[Gordo]

IMO, you want the minimum viscosity oil that maintains an acceptable hot oil pressure - using a 60 weight oil is just adding stress to the oil pump and taking power from the flywheel. Heck, it can even cause bearing to run hotter due to a reduction in the cooling oil flowing through them and with turbo's it can affect the spooling up time and boost due to the increased drag in the bearings.
For track days or when an engine is going to be running hot, etc, I wouldn't go past a GOOD full synthetic and possibly an oil cooler upsizing.

[dewismotorsport]

I agree Brian the 3k would be with a mix of driving on road and to said track days full day session and then back again bear in mind castle Combe is 200miles there and 200 back and allowing drives home and back which is 450 mile round trip, but if purely track days I'd gauge the state of the oil as to when to change, now I'm on the Motul 300V which I've gone for a 15/50 which is a good inbetween as I was advised away from the 60

[DarrenH]

Knowing when to change your oil is a better skill than blanket mileage/age rules.

absolutely

using a 60 weight oil is just adding stress to the oil pump and taking power from the flywheel.

not teaching granny to suck eggs, but 60 weight is only 60 weight at 100 deg C (likewise 40 is 40 at 100) ive measured my oil (at the pump) at 120-130 on track days, and thats a C20XE. it was nudging 150 without an oil cooler.

i dont know how the viscosity scales at those temps, but i know it wont be 60 weight, it will be less. so a better measure is how thin it DOESNT get at those extremes, and how much it DOESNT break down at those temps. the datasheets for millers CFS 10w60 show its superior in that respect.

[Gordo]

I know that, we had to do experiments measuring viscosity in centistokes at tech' (which are now totally forgotten).
However, it's irrelevant for what I said about adaquate hot oil pressure, etc.
If you're running the oil to 130C, even with a full synthetic, there's a good chance it's close to or exceeding it's breakdown temperature in some areas - you really should be using a larger oil cooler (if that's not also an egg sucking comment ;-D) and bringing it down to around 100C - IMO, of course.

[nevcontractor]

An interesting read. I think I'll pull my relief valve out on mine and check it ASAP.

[Vinci]

DuPont who own the Teflon brand name refused to let it be used on engine oil and tried to refuse to sell it to the companies as well because there is no evidence that PTFE reduces engine wear.

Brilliant, another quarrel between companies... No evidence eh? Okay simple physics tell me that better consumption figures come from only one thing when it comes down to lubes, less friction. An engine is stuffed with glide bearings. Now I am a Dutchman right... Need I say more?? I press my mileage counter to zero every time I fill her up and even keep statistics of her drinking habits. There was a clear advantage going from non additive to the additive. Have to admit I also doped the gearbox oil with fingear product, but I count that as the same enhancement.

Averaged figures, went from 1:11.99 to 1:14,37 (liters to kilometers) That's 33.87 UK MPG to 40.59 UK MPG... Quite a difference I'd say!

Now isn't less friction also resulting in less wear??

Okay I have also put motor oil on several joints in the past and it is an excellent lubricant, but it's certainly not giving the smoothness of teflon. A friend of mine is a chemical engineer and he explained to me how it works, also explained there is not just one kind of teflon (he also gave the real names, but that's over 24 hours ago, weekend in between...) There is for instance the kind that bonds to surfaces and the kind that keeps floating around. All in all they act like little bearings, it is SUPER heat resistant, frying pans are coated with it for crying out loud! And don't we all know how smooth our pancakes are baked in there without sticking...

I think we don't need to guess why Dupont refused to sell it to engine oil companies, probably because they refused to pay enough for the rights and rather fought their own war. Seems to only make more sense to add it yourself then...

[Gordo]

There's one big problem with many teflon type additives - it makes machining very difficult as the stones get coated and stop working properly.
There is also some concern that it may act as a partial heat barrier.

[DarrenH]

If you're running the oil to 130C, even with a full synthetic, there's a good chance it's close to or exceeding it's breakdown temperature in some areas

i agree, but it wasnt close to or exceding its breakdown temp, because i was using millers cfs 10-60, as it was a track day car

and my original point of the 60 weight comment is that it will be thinner than 60 weight at those elevated temps, and not an issue for labouring the oil pump