The end of my 3.1L V6, where to get stronger parts?

[KadettE V6 Noob]

Hey all

I´ve managed to get a nice engine build for my Kadett E. A 3.1 Liter V6 with some few mods, stock 3.0 buttom end, with a 3.2L steel crank, regrinded cams, longrunners and polished heads. Ended up with a nice result at 279HP / 310NM. BUT, all things have an end, and so did my engine. It pulled 2 legs out the side, due to weak rods or rod-bolts.

Have some pictures added here of the damage that came along with the engine blowup.





I want to build an stronger engine with bigger stroke. I´ve heard about Swindon racing, but are they really the only ones that can offer a stroker kit for the X30XE engine?.
Who else to contact to get the proper parts. I still want to stay N/A, and want to reach the 330HP mark.

Hope anyone has some good links or knows someone that can offer the parts required.

Regards Carsten from Denmark.

[Gordo]

Budget?
With money, you can get anything done, within reason, as long as the data they need to make the part is available.
For example, you may be able to use 20XE pistons, have aftermarket valves in enlarged seats, have a stroker crank made from a raw forging or billet, have custom rods made to suit the length and big/small enfd bores, jenvey throttle bodies, etc. Cam's can be ground from new blanks, possibly custom made if cut down 20XE aren't compatable with lobe/journal location.
Swindon did make some racing engines, based on the GM V6, that was giving over 410 hp in restricted mode at over 8k rpm and IIRC, around 450 unrestricted. The engines were also used in Germany in the Calibras, in RWD configuration, so perhaps some of the European/German guys can help. Even if you just find out who made their cranks, it'd be a good start, as they may still have the machining data.
One thing that's often overlooked, because of the difficulty in fabricating them and expense, is a pair of good exhaust manifolds and exhaust system.

What rpm were you doing when the engine let go?

[Tathan]

If you're thinking of the DTM Calibras, they're were made from fresh casting, they weren't the c25xe family of engines.

I'd put an LSx in there now tbh, but I am the kind of person who uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

[Gordo]

Thanks, Tathan, I knew the Merc's were unique castings but didn't know the Calibras were also - internals also different, then, I assume?

Some basic race engine stuff...
"Besides standard engine types Calibras were also produced in special edition versions.



1. Calibra 2.5 V6 DTM 93-95 (420 hp) - Keke Rosberg, Manuel Reuter, Louis Krager :
Engine type: V-shaped (54 degree)
Max power: 420 KM
Range: to 10.740 r.p.m.
Transmission: sequential without synchronization, prepared together with Williams
Injection: Bosch Motronic MS 1.9.
4-wheel drive



2. Calibra 3,2 V6 DTM 95-96 (570 hp) - Manuel Reuter :
Engine type: V-shaped (75 degree)
Max power: 570 KM
Range: to 12,750 r.p.m.
Transmission: sequential without synchronization, prepared together with Williams
Injection: Bosch Motronic MS 1.9
4-wheel drive"

More info here, tathan is correct, completely different -
http://www.calibra.org/lang/en/DTM.htm

These guys may also be able to help -
http://www.ricwood.com/modern_race_engines.html

[Tathan]

I assume to get 450hp they had to rev the nuts off them so expect a stroke in the 50mm region lol. I guess there isn't a shared component tbh. They were referenced t'other day when we were dreaming in lee303's build thread, these two links have a little bit of info

racecarsdirect.com (Race Cars For Sale) » Cosworth KF 2.5 V6 (Opel DTM)
Prolinx - specialised suspension

[lee303]

the 3 litre rods are renowned for being weaker than the 2.5 variant, but yes, probably swindon are your bets bet for parts, or try martin bowyer, i know he’s built a few v6s, but i certainly wouldn’t bother trying to develop your own using xe pistons and cut down cams!! lol and whatnot as suggested as that will be horrifically expensive and seems un necessary when swindon have already done all the work

[KadettE V6 Noob]

Thanx for input guys

The engine ran close to 7000rpm when it all went to hell.

The heads seems to be fine, as the pistons on the two damaged cylinders are lying in the middle of the cylinder, and not smashed up the sparkplugs. So the heads and cams will be swapped over.
It´s not a high rev engine i´m about to build, but still wan´t it to produce a fair amount of HP/Torque. But if the custom made bottom end can do over 9000RPM anyway, then I could go for other cams, TB´s as well. Intake system and cams I can get from a tuner here in DK, he has a cheap set for sale at the moment.

FOr the bottom end I´m ready to throw 4 - 4.500£ after it.

[DarrenH]

tbh, other than the rods the engine spec seems to be "ok" for your current state of tune? someone must sell steel rods, even send a standard one off (for dimensions) and get a set made

do you want to develop it more in the future, or just make it strong for 300bhp ?

p.s pictures !!

[34ada]

how did you go about fitting the 3.2 steel crank??...did you use the 3.2 rods aswell??

[lee303]

with 4.5 k for a bottom end i’d probably just speak to swindon, rods, crank and pistons for that money seems do-able

[Gordo]

With that sort of budget, you should certainly have an 8-9K bottom end - if you treat it as a 20XE with a couple of extra cylinders, eg, TBs, exhaust dimensions, bigger valves, cams, etc, I would expect even 400hp to be easily within reach - especially with a stroker crank.
It just takes money...

When it's done, be sure to post some videos of the engine working hard - should be an aural delight!

[34ada]

are you wanting to stay N/A or possibly looking at forced induction??

only really researched forced induction on the v6 but..

on forced induction, forged pistons alone will see over 300+ safely!!...depending on condition of your engine!

what engine management are you running?

rod's, pistons and steel crank and a few other choice mods your looking at 400bhp+

price wise!!...i got quoted...(aprox as there old quotes)

£857.00 + vat for for pistons (X30xe)
and pretty much the same for rods but they would be good for 9000rpm!! (x30xe) and

swindon built and used an engine for the Lotus Exige...X30XE...

Engine
• Narrow (56°) angle V6 engine, water-cooled
• 2,998 cc, stroke 86 mm, bore 86 mm.
• Max. power: 400 hp (296 kW or 405 PS) at 7,750 rpm
• Max. torque: 294 lb.ft (398 Nm or 40.6 kgm) at 6,500 rpm
• Max. rpm: 8,250 rpm
• Four valve technology
• Oil-cooler (oil-water heat exchanger)
• Dry-sump lubrication
• SRE Multi-roller barrel throttle bodies
• F1 style airbox and air snorkel
• Motec M600 electronic engine management system
• Required fuel quality: 98 octane super unleaded
• Race exhaust: multiple pipe manifold, open exhaust
• No catalytic converter

2005 Lotus
Sport Exige

all depends on how deep your pockets are!!

[KadettE V6 Noob]

this is how the engine worked a week before it´s final breath. http://www.bilgalleri.dk/vid_vis.aspx?VideoID=43744

in this video I start in 2. gear, stock F20 gearbox and normal 195/50-15" tyres.

It´s the stock ECU with a dyno chip made for this setup.


If I build the engine for later on forced induction, then I will loose some power when having it in a N/A state, as the compression ratio have to be lowered quite some, or ?...

The 3.0 and 3.2 rods are 100% the same, the difference are the pistons, they are 2mm lower in the 3.2 engine, to match the higher stroke. The 3.2 crank fits without problems.

The plan was to build an engine that could take a beating with 330-350HP, without putting a leg out the side, I use the car for daily driving, and for drag racing. For daily driving I will use a stock Omega B intake, with bigger butterflyes, and for competition use I will use a set of TB´s.

[KadettE V6 Noob]

That lotus engine sounds like fun, still on a 3Liter engine, that means it´s only cams and bigger valves, the intake and the ECU that has to be modified. And rods/pistons as well of course. but no need to use a bigger stroke, 398NM on a 3.0 Engine is quite enough for a Kadett E. .

[34ada]

if your sticking with N/A then to get 300-350bhp i'm guessing its gona get expensive and would probably be cheaper to build an engine for forced induction!... saying that there a few 3.2 on throttle bodies and a few other mods making 300+bhp

[KadettE V6 Noob]

Well the problem with forced induction in my case would be that I would have to aim for 600HP to beat the other cars in the class. If I can keep it at 330-350HP in N/A state, I can win in that class.

[KadettE V6 Noob]

Here´s a few more pictures of the dead engine. Looking at them you can see damaged pistons, 4 valves bend, rods in bits and pieces and it looks so far that a poor rod bolt (stock) was broken due to too much stress, and caused all the following damage. Damnit. Just because I couldn´t wait for ARP bolts to arrive, and wanted to assemble the engine right away!.
This is a link directly to my profile at a danish site: Let my know if there´s a password required to see them: 3.1 V6 motorhavari - Bilgalleri.dk - Danmarks største bilgalleri

[thedondy]

thats some nasty engine failure right there

[roadkill]

Try TGSi2000 on here he sells v6 steel rods Also any custom dimension

[KadettE V6 Noob]

It´s been a while since the engine blew up, and alot of different ideas has come across the drawing board.

First I thought of the 3.6Liter GM engine from the Cadillacs, I could deal with one custom engine mount. But as the gearbox mount is a different pattern, I think that project will be too overkill.

Then I thought of the stroker crank, always great with good torque. But piston speed is crucial, and that doesn´t really mix with the use of TB's and high RPM.

So my last and probably the solution I will go for, is an X30XE engine with stronger pistons and rods. I´ve found out that C20XE rods and pistons are a direct fit to the X30XE crank, and I have found both forged pistons and steel H rods to a price of around 1300£

Since my own 3.2 crank was too damaged to use, I just need a 3.0 crank, but of course they are to rare to get a hold on, I probably need to buy a whole new engine, just to disassemble it and use the crank.

[steve greening]

I'm in the process of building a 3.2 at the moment and looking for steel rods, are they the same as the 3.0? I know it has been stated they are, but I just want to make sure before I buy a set fromTGSi2000.

P.s May be of use? There is a 3.2 crank on sale in eBay, £95. And it looks like he may ship, although difficult to judge the quality/condition.

[34ada]

i'm gona be looking at rebuilding my x30xe and buying rod's and pistons from TGSi2000 so let us no what there like steve!!

dam you steve i was keeping any eye on that 3.2 crank!! lol....heres the link mate
VAUXHALL OPEL OMEGA + VECTRA 3.2 Y32SE V6 CRANKSHAFT CRANK SHAFT GM 24435338 | eBay

[KadettE V6 Noob]

Nice, I can see that he also have a 3.2 lump on sale. That just gave another idea on the board ... but then I just need to find a place where they make 3.2 race pistons. Stock ones are not that exellent in design, with valve lift in mind.