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About LinkBacksits decided tomorrow you need to make some video'sOriginally Posted by Jack
My god. I'd love to see some videos like... third gear from 20mph upwards.
its decided tomorrow you need to make some video'sMy god. I'd love to see some videos like... third gear from 20mph upwards.
Owns a white Mk3 turbo diesel with more stopping power then engine power..... boosting 0.9bar, Now De-catted!!
sadly ive just started to chop parts of the floor pan out ready for a bit of crude semi space framing , but ill see what i can do when thats coming along ( i can only record on my phone any ways and that not great quality ), - seeing as this is small area for us diesel guys , ill chuck in a few little pointers that may help anyone thinking of doing a serious diesel if it helps seeing as theres not nearly as many of us on mig , personally no1 imho i wouldnt tune a big turboed derv without a egt gauge , most imperative thing in my eyes , pre turbo , the only way to tune the fuel , gauging black smoke is not enough , unless youre running 1400- 1500 degrees f youre not running enough fuel , run as rich as you can possibly get away with , sod the smoke , be proud of it , hehe lmao fuel is critical , obtaining boost is the easy bit , if you over fuel you scorch pistons , but most of the time you need to know if you are running out of pump flow , changing nozzles only go so far , and the range of a pump on any derv regardless of whether its bosch ve etc is very narrow before you reach its quantity per stroke ceiling and have to get into serious cam plate and plunger size alterations , - another thing i feel is worth a mention ( a bit obvious i know ) but chasing lower and lower boost thresholds on a diesel is bit of false dawn when going big power , quick spooling will only increase the propensity for more low down torque , leading to increased peak cylinder pressures where they are overly critical any way, and your likely hood of bending rods increases exponentially with any diesel , some may disagree but Gasser philosophy is the way to go , extending the rev band and holding a lower gear for longer always off sets torque lugging performance , always !, its just the laws of physics - i have seen vw diesels pull 6500rpm plus,for dragging , with governor mods and the performance increases have been considerable ( hell our internals will laugh 6500rpm in the face if Gasser's do it ) its just getting it to breath at that speed with extensive turbo matching to prevent drop off and to push some of that colossal torque up the rev range and over the 5252 rpm tq/hp cross over , but crucially the holy grail of devrs , solving and modding the dynamic timing advance e.g milling the timing cover or shaving the advance timing piston to allow more travel etc is the key
- Finally if i were to do multiple turbos again - i wouldnt !,as its overly complicated and requires too much trial + error , not to mention it multiplies temperature ratios as well as pressure ratios ( yet more issues
) and even when you think youve got a good set up , you may find that the turbos surge like a bugger, fight each other or something stupid the moment you touch the boost controller ! and the whole lot goes down the pan
- especially when you could find a cheap vnt turbo these days that handle 35 to 40 psi uncorked - if you had to go my route i would go the twin charger route , e.g a turbo blowing through say a nice M45 supercharger from a mini , that way you can drop the compression ratio below the 18 to say 20 : 1 threshold you need for starting purposes , keeping PCP'S in check seeing as 50psi of boost works out to be around 7000psi on this engine at stock compression ( enough to blow the head clean off ) no exaggeration !
, 14 to 1 would bring it in to line around pcp's of 140 hp motor , around 4000 psi ( do able i think , but still possible h/g problems ? ) thats how tall an order the task is ! - but you would need a super charger geared high enough to create enough positive pressure while at cranking speeds to even replace the lost compression required to even start the thing !, seeing as youve practically just machined your pistons in half to handle any where close to 50 psi lol
------- Oh well , enough of that ------ sorry for the long and very tedious post guys , just trying to stirr ideas around and that , after all diesels dont have to be boring do they !
P.S dont do parallel twins on a 4 pot motor ( it'll be laggier than a single ) as you will negate all of your pulse tuning effect --- dont do series turbos , aka compound twins , the multiplied pressure ratios end up too much for the engine internals to take ( im finding that out lol , -- do sequential twin if you have the choice , its surely the best compromise and most effective solution imho , just borrow the flapper valves etc from a supra or rx7
BMW's latest twin turbo diesel set up manages to replicate all 3 of these solutions in one system with enough gate and valve trickery to put the thames barrier to shame
Clever sods ze germans !
Legend, some really interesting stuff floating around in your noggin, my good sir!
Have you looked at the engine in the new Civics? 16v CDTI Isuzu engine based on our old friend Mr. 1.7! I wonder how close the blocks are to matching.
Teeth? LUXURY! When I was a child we ate by putting rocks in our mouth and jumping up and down.
nice one , i will certainly be looking in to the details of that , never heard of it , cheers for pulling that one outta the bag , ive been interested in the dti 1.7 fitted to vectras etc , im convinced its the same block as our isuzus , but it has a 16 valve head ! , ive been wondering if i could junk the electronic pump off of one , fitt our reliable old bosch pump back on , and enjoy the wonders 16 v top end breathing would give us , you couldnt mix and match the dti's pistons though , mind cos they would have a different piston bowel , - can any one tell me if the dti is direct injection or not if they know , as ive never seen one up close , cheers
thats exactly what ive been thinking about doing with my mates dti , we are gonna put an isuzu in or put the mechanical pump on and turn up the boost , it looks like the pump will mount on and that the injector pipes etc will all mate up , just i think that it is direct injection so not sure how this would affect the pressures needed and the pump timing etc the block looks like it is the same to me..
Very interesting reading santaclaus, don't suppose you know were I can read up on such stuff i.e web links or books ? in depth information about this stuff seems to be hard to find.
I've seen egt mentioned a lot on american sites when there tuning the v8 diesels, don't suppose you could explain it in simple terms for me, what is the target/optimum temp ? does more fuel = higher temp, less fuel = lower temp ? is it just the temp at full throttle that is important or is the temp under different loads important ? were is the sensor located, is it in a position to measure one cylinder or in the collector were all of the pipes join so you get an average of all cylinders ?
Also do you have any tips for tuning the isuzu motor when its being using as an everyday car and extreme tuning is not really feasable ? the usual tweaks (fuel,boost,exhaust,intercooler) seem to produce around 120bhp and 170lbs torque, do you have any suggestions for further improvements while still retaining enough reliability to use the car every day ?
I have advanced the pump timing 2 degrees as this was mentioned on the tuning thread on the VxON forum (by someone who appeared to know lots about injection pumps), is this a valid thing to do ?
One last thing, thanks for sharing your knowledge
try the vw gtd forum mate , lots of great stuff , you have to remember the bosch ve , is common to alot of vehicles , even massive cummins 6.5's etc in the states , lots to tinker with , in selecting small diffrent pump items from a varitiy of manufacturers , mix and match , - yep youre not wrong - For egts , more fuel = highier temp readings and highier rev therefore = highier temps , along with other things like advanced timing , but thats a whole different ball game-, i have seen scorched pistons in the past , but usually , the turbo turbine melts first , in fact i remember seeing pics of guy on here , dutchnova guy i think with scorched pistons when he fitted a 1.7 pump on the 1.5 ( woops i thought , you need a egt gauge mate lol) - short bursts up to 1400 - 1500 degrees f is fine , youre biggest worry is not to sustain high temps down say a motorway etc , drag diesels on the continent push the limits to around 1700f in a 1/4 mile only - i believe cast alloy etc starts melting above 1700 - 1800 , but thats if you have enough fuel to do it in the first place , dont hold me responsible on those figures though , double check through forums like gtd and dodge cummin's sites --- , the egt probe goes an inch or 2 above the turbo where the exhaust ports collect , some go post turbo , theres lots of reasons why this is inaccurate though , egt gauges are not the cheapest thing in the world , but if you look hard enough , you can find ones for all sorts of other applications , doesnt have to be a car , , but even expensive car type vary in how quick they read e.g ressolution , is the major bug bare of some well know brands - mine came dirt cheap from of all things , a 2 stroke scooter racer in germany via ebay , probes can be brought separately etc , and even some multimeters have this facility ( look for k- type thermocoupling sockets on one in ebay etc ( has to be K type not J , same with the probe )---- 2 degrees advance pump timing sounds bang on mate , some go more extreme , when chasing as much timing as poss for mega revs , but peak cylinder pressures increase lots with it , 2 sounds great for the street ----------- imho , theres not many options avaliable in tuning terms , im not even sure if the trooper turbo is a myth or not , i have seen one , but not mated to the mani though , it would fit the 1.7 mani , but looking at the clearance between the compressor housing and the block with just the stock unit , i think theres a reason no one has shown evidence of doing it ? ( i have other info of other ihi turbos that will fit the flange if any ones interested , but they are rare to find , and it still doesnt solve the issue of housing to block clearance , and it only gets worse the bigger you go obviously ) - , the inducer , exducer sizes are only fractions bigger on the trooper anyway , diesels love meth water injection , mess around with different percentages , google the net for , home made / diy water inj systems , they dont have to cost aquamist prices ! - cheapest route to big power is of course nitrous - check this site for a diy system , i have done this my self - http://www.nitrous.info/ - i have read , mig member rich c has done around 200hp on his 1.7 without issues ---- if ya want info on compound turbo sizing , check this thread , even though its a shortened version of the true thread it'll put you off ,i wish it had me ! the guy i ask questions to on there is the smartest guy i have ever meet on a forum and even he doesnt recommend it LOL - http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=208045 go sequential instead !
Thanks for the info, very interesting and has given me some more leads on what stuff to read up on
Don't suppose anyone knows the weight of the Isuzu motor ?
If no one can give you the info by the end of the week duckruls , ill see if i can weigh one of mine ( got 2 1.7s just sitting in garage ) just gotta find some old scales to do it with , ive always wanted to know how it compares to the weight of a XE anyways --- By the way duckruls , you dont by any chance happen to be Paul Duckmanton do you , if so , i blame you and your early site , along with another guy rich c for getting me into all this diesel malarky in the first place hahahaa , cheers for opening my eyes to probably one of the strongest small block diesels ever made imo !
Hopefully when ive time i may look into chasing up any info i can , to pursue some sort of cheap but effective way of hybridising the rhb4 turbo we all have via usage of other stock ihi turbo components
either that or a cheap / easy + replicable way of producing a standardised adaptor plate to our manifolds , to multi fit a variety of house hold turbos , t3's t2's that sort of thing , if theres enough interest and idea from others that is , cos personally , turbo selection is probably the only thing holding back this engines potential , and with it the possibily to sporn a mini revolution on this site LOL - let us know what you guys think
I think a hybrid turbo or adapter plate would be an exellent idea
I think this sort of info is already out there, people in portugal and malta seem to modify this motor quiet heavily but all the stuff I have come across in the past is difficult to understand (it seems to loose its meaning when I have tried to use on-line translating) and lacks specific details.
Being able to tap into the knowledge over there would be very useful.
Interesting read !
@Santa:
In what order are you're turbo's, is the RHB3 not a (too big) restriction in exhaust flow ?
Any more / bigger pictures ?
I was using an EGT monitor when the last engine died, should've paid more attention to it though !
Probe goes here:
Found the kit on ebay:ebay.de/EGT
I recently bought an RHF4-VIBD, the ballbearing version found on late astra's/vectra's,
that'll replace the RHB4-T3P9C6 i was using before.
this is the astra cdti 100bhp 1.7. it is a izuzu with a 16v head. the cams a re driven by scissor gears.
this is the fiat jtd twin turbo diesel lum, apparently the same as the vaux 1.9 cdti, i.e the t888 lump.
looks like a izuzu too!
Sideways through the forest.
www.allcorsa.co.uk
touching cloth since 1995
Izuzu
As for the 1.9 (and 1.3):
Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine
Last edited by DutchNovaDiesel; 18-12-2008 at 14:27.
Whats that face for Dutch?
As for the 1.7cdti, do we know that it is the same block as found in the early cav/astra? Because Isuzu do a couple of 1.7 turbo diesels.
Also, is it direct or indirect injection? If it's direct then my pump would struggle to generate the pressure needed so there would be no pint me using the head!
It's really interesting to hear what people have been up to outside of this site. We all seem to have been doing similar research but it hasn't been mentioned that much. I'v also been watching a lot of what the americans have been doing and it's really interesting, and as santa said, the bosche ve pump comes on loads of things. Joe Pettit's book 'High Performance Diesel Builders guide' is quite a good read. I found it cheapest off Amazon and it goes through the principals of diesel tunning with advice from Gale Banks. It won't tell you how to build a compound turbo or how to build your own NOS sytem but you get the theory of why those things will work. It even cleared up why you shouldn't bother with a supercharger on a diesel engine which is something i'v considered, and asked about, for quite a while now.
Although the above book doesn't really rate Propane i'm currently building a system for mine, it works, just make sure you have an EGT!!
I say it works, the people i'v spoken to about it have 6ltr plus engines and there is some discrepancy about if it works so well on smaller engines with indirect injection but i guess i'll find out. I have a spare engine anyways...
I'v also found a guy recently in the UK that's working with liquid LPG which is injected at about -30 degrees giving you free charge cooling as well!!
Diesel's are never boring!! they just take a little more thinking about to wring all the power out of them!------- Oh well , enough of that ------ sorry for the long and very tedious post guys , just trying to stirr ideas around and that , after all diesels dont have to be boring do they !
Diesel is the way of the future for motorsport, Just look at the audi R10 and the peugeot 908. In the states Gale Banks has managed a sub-7 second 1/4 mile in a diesel engined dragster.
I like the idea of a diesel revolution. Get some biodiesel on the go and we have cheap(er) motorsport!
the 1.7 comes as direct and indirect. i know the 1.9 and 1.3 re alfa romeo/fiat, but there very very good. and they come in the modern vaux's.
Sideways through the forest.
www.allcorsa.co.uk
touching cloth since 1995
So they are avaliable as a 16 valve indirect injection?
Do you know much about them saabturbonova? Do you work with them or is your knowledge through your own research?
a bit of both. i worked for a very large breakers for 2 years. the combo c has the indirect in it. the wiring isnt very complex for the ecu tbh. id love one in a nova! i do a bit of research aswell. i read alot of hanes and stuff too
Sideways through the forest.
www.allcorsa.co.uk
touching cloth since 1995
Cool , dutchnova , liking ya egt , mines digital too , you still got your web site mate ? , any new updates etc - i remember way back finding an old post of yours on fiat 124 forum about rhb5's ( they could of been more helpfull to your questions in my opinion ! ) you dont happen to remember the flange diemensions of the uno unit you had do you if you wouldnt find of course ? ---- ya spot on about my restrictive exhaust flow through the rhb3 , still on min boost at mo so not found out , though exhaust flow will get by passed around turbine if too much , as per normal wastegate operation , its whether the wastegate port is big enough and requires porting out etc --- will take back pressure readings when i start to play with boost setting
Love ya style fridge , ballsy though , with the propane as you rightly say , Propane is a fuel so helps when solving the age old problem of running out juice from the pump for more hp , but as such adding propane to your diesel is much like putting in bigger injectors or a bigger injection pump, with one differance being is that normally as you add propane you loose smoke, where as you add diesel you add smoke. --- The real problem with propane in an IDI diesel engine though such as our beloved 1.5 - 1.7s is the high CR of 22:1 this is even to high for propane and its high octane rating of 118 (seems to vary some by sources ''just took an average''). As such it begins to cause detonation simillar to to a high CR in a gas motor, ---- with very small doses, from what the majority of other peoples experiances on yank sites and the like , it seems that the max power attainable is only about 5%, after which it blows the head off...literally! , not some thing you wanna dable lightly with --- so i suppose thats why , the jury is still out on it , and the reason why it still divides opinion on whether it truely deserves the title of '' the nitrous of diesels '' --- as fidge quite rightly mentions !
Propane is a good modification for those with DI diesels though as they run a lower CR as well a the larger combustion area that seems to be more to the liking of propane , aidding a larger window of usage before detonation or extreme peak cylinder pressures
-- Just had to kick my self about this one guys , i should of realised the moment it was mentioned - but looking at it logically , i seriously doubt that there could ever have been a 16 valve indirect diesel head , from which we could retro fit etc , seeing as fundamentally , by design 16v are only compatible with direct injection , due to the very fact , there would be no room for a prechamber / ricarrdo cap ( what ever term you use ) to exist in a 16 valve head to start with , DOH ! , wishful thinking i suppose though
Ah well, bigger valves it is then!!
To be honest santa, i don't know how much power i will get either due to the restrictions we've both mentioned. I'm doing it partly as an experiement. I'v heard so much conflicting stuff said about it i just thought theres one real way to settle it. I don't like the idea of a fogger or 'dump' system so i'm planning to use a petrol-injection plenum chamber and runner set up with lpg injectors about 1 inch from the ports. This will also give me longer runners which should in turn give me more torque i beleive, and if i look for a bigger plenum chamber i'll be better off as well.
The initial set up will be a bit pricey-er but i have plans to use an after market ecu on another project later so aquiring one for this won't be too much of a pain. And when i'm done the lpg tank will go in my brothers land rover!
Can i ask how you turn your fuel up when using NOS? I'v considered a couple of ideas including solenoids or even a mechanical conection from the enrichment screw on the pump into the car but i havn't decided on the best way yet.
Also, does anyone have a link to Rich_C's build? I haven't been a member very long so i'v not seen what he's done before and i coulnd't find a link using search.
god damn fidge , you sound like one ballsy ass mofo dude , hahahaa , i would love to hear about any thing you learn or figure out about it in future , youll have to keep me posted , as personally i wouldnt mind just rigging up some crude gas canistor to the mani , mani lines , or induction , with carefully controlled squirts etc playing from inside the cabin , just to see myself lol
ive built the diy nitrous system , as you might be able to tell from one of my pics , but never got round to plumbing it in fully , im abit stumped about the fuel enrichment method too , will have to pull my finger out and ask around , ill let ya know if i find out what methods are best etc , i know rich c , if memory serves correct ?? i think was told to just pumb a tee from the nitrous line ( after solenoid of course ) to the boost anoid ( and its boost pressure operated diaphram enrichment ) on top of the pump - but dont quote me on that one , as ive never spoken directly to the guy , only read snipets of his posts on a forum called cavweb , though duckruls has just pm'ed me , and mentioned that he may no longer be apart of that forum now
I'm not the one who put Three turbos in a corsa!!!lmao
Mine might not even work yet, I may end up with a 840kg paper weight.
You two love birds (duckruls and yourself) should stop pm'ing each other and share the knowledgelmao
I think you've accomplished what you set out to do with stirring the waters in the isuzu diesel tunning department santa. if someone can see a way to break the 120bhp glass ceiling these things have, in a regularly reproducable way then that'd be awsome.
(Also, it would just be fun to see whats the most you could get out of one of them, like you're trying now)
tbh 120bhp shouldnt be too hard. what bout going all out, and building a monster, with a huge (t60) turbo, one off rods, and the 16v direct setup? aparently the heads start to dissolve at very high boost on the 8v's. a guy on png got 306 bhp from aa 1.7 so its poss, it blew up 10 mins later tho.....
Sideways through the forest.
www.allcorsa.co.uk
touching cloth since 1995
I know the one you're talking about, Baxter's Nova. I post mainly on png so i'v heard lots of things about his. He had a custom cam, twin turbo set up with a 1.5 and 1.7 turbo, polished and ported head, etc. I haven't seen how his turbo's were arranged yet as i'v only pm'd him and not seen a build thread but i think he might keep it a bit of a secret. He said he's got the dyno print out to prove the power though.
For some reason people can be cagey about thier tunning secrets, they want to be the only ones with the advantage, but if you pool ideas you make gains much quicker imo.
good man fridge. like the saab engine threa, we realised in 5 days how to fit the lump to pretty much all of the vaux range. the best i9deas come from 3 guys down the boozer talking stit, as it usually throws up a gold nugget. baxter is so cagey it makes me wonder.............
Sideways through the forest.
www.allcorsa.co.uk
touching cloth since 1995
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