any plumbers here???

[Robsyuk]

Any plumbers here??

I bled my radiator again ( its about once every 2 months) and normally my pump makes a slight grinding noise for about 20mins and then eventually it shuts up and all is back on board..

This time the grinding / rumbling noise turned to a extreamly loud screech / squeal that almost made me soil myself.

I turned everything off and checked the tank levels in the loft - all are well over half way.
I have a gas boiler in the kitchen - pilot light is just simmering away, Yellow tank in the airing cupboard with pump and then three tanks in the loft. two big and a small one.

Just don't know what to do.... Before anyone says about joining British gas etc - I used to be with them until they said that because my system is older then 10yrs old they wouldn't be able to fix / replace it.

[jamied]

did you bleed the pump?

[Robsyuk]

no, i had a look at the pump and the only nipple as such is a bolt (10mm) in the middle, i undid it as much as i could - not knowing what to expect it wouldnt come all the way out. there was no hissing or water so I don't know what this bolt does. I turned the heaters on n instantly off and nothing came out of the bolt - but the grinding / rumblin noise seemed to be worse

[Andy^mk3]

Pumps usually have a bit flat head screw in the middle to bleed them

[jamied]

your pump should have a large screw at the front, while it is spinning you can bleed it.
Replacing a Central Heating Pump

[Robsyuk]

nope doesnt look like that.. they are too new. mines a blue myson one like this http://www.uk-plumbing.com/myson-com...315b4190e13579

after reading the spec it says auto venting. does that mean the bolt through the middle isn't a vent?

[MSG]

Sounds like your pump is gone mate, the bearings are worn out causing the rotor to make contact with the stator magnet and possibly not even turn or just jam up, which will eventually cook your windings and blow the fuse.

You can physically check if the pump is turning, by undoing a large screw with a slot, some water will leak as you undo, so place a rag or a small bowl under to collect this water, and if there are any electrics underneath this then make sure no water can eneter the electrics, cover it up properly.

Then start the sytem, and withba screwdriver tip, feel the pump/motor shaft spinning reasonably fast, which it should do if the system is turned on, and the motor should make no noise apart from a small rumbling noise that all motors make when turning.

Edit: Aah just seen the picture of the pump, on yours it is that large nut which you can remove to see if the shaft is turning fast, and freely, if it is slow, then the rotor may well be contacting the stator and slowing down as well as making that grinding noise,

You can use a torch to see the shaft turning or use the tip of a screw driver to feel the shaft turning, as touching the tip with the shaft would make this turning noise as the tip of the screwdriver rubs the turning shaft. Torch is the preffered methos.

[Robsyuk]

on mine its ot a nut but a 10mm nut on a shaft, i undo it all the way but it doesn't come out.

[jamied]

might be time to get a new pump mate, are the shut off valves each side ok to close?

[MSG]

photos might help.

[8valve-craig]

Sounds like an "s" or "Y" plan system so replacing the pump is straight forward, If your mechanically minded save yourself a bundle by fitting it yourself. There should be two shut off valves, one either side of the pump so you can replace it without draining the system. (providing they still work)

Generally just a case of the two large unions and a bunch of wires (try to get a like for like pump if they are still available and copy the wiring)

If you do decide to do it yourself dont forget the rubber/fiber washers..... They make a big difference to wether it leaks or not....

[jamied]

fitted one yesterday and the shut off valves were solid closed off all the radiator valves and drained the system so the radiators would still have water in them and stripped off the old pump, valves and replaced, took about 50 mins in total.

[neil105]

You using a water additive with anti this and anti that also lubing quality's

[MSG]

Screwfix do a range of pumps here is a good one for under £40.00 inc vat. Flomasta 7000233 Central Heating Pump 230V - Screwfix.com, Where the Trade Buys

they also do complete control system for your central heating plan S or plan Y, for an S plan this includes a 7 day timer and two control valves and all other things necessary like connectors etc.

[MSG]

Also highly reccomended installing a CO Alarm, for you never know, anything that works right one day can fail the next , so irrespective who you are and what qualifications you have when things go wrong they can just go wrong and for many it is other external factors that can cause devastating effects such as alterations to buildings and planning extensions where it is easier to overlook effects of CO from a nearby flue and co accumulation.

the one I reccomend can be bought very cheaply from Safelincs Ltd (www.safelinks co.uk) product code KE9000260 for £16.50 and has a digital readout and can ntell you how many parts of CO are there at any given time, and it will alarm at various levels of CO, depending on the amount of Co accumulation, at less than 30PPM being present continuously for over 2 hours it will raise an alarm, at 50 ppm it will take an hour to an hour and a half, that is provided the Co levels remain higher than 50ppm, and similarly if the CO levels reach 100ppm it will go into alarm between 10min to 40 minutes, and at 300ppm it will go into alarm in under 3 minutes!

An ordinary cigarette smoking in a room can raise the Co level to 47ppm, in about 5 minutes, this won't raise an alarm, as the co detector would ignore short spikes of Co built up.

I placed this detector about 2 feet away from my boiler flue in a slightly confined space so that co can build up without being dispersed by atmoshereic or air draft outside, and in 10 minutes it raised the alarm with the reading having reached 552ppm at 2 feet away.

[MSG]

A bit about Carbon Monoxide ambient levels, the streets full of traffic has far more Co than you might get from a gas cooker!


Carbon Monoxide

Carbon monoxide poisoning is a major cause of death each year, either accidentally or through suicide. But it is the lesser effects that concern us here and these, though common, are usually overlooked. Ambient raised carbon monoxide levels in the home and at work are a major source of indoor pollution and can lead to headaches, weakness, mental confusion and dizziness. Just the kind of things a busy primary care doctor is likely to shrug off as psychogenic (mental or emotional rather than physical) symptoms.

In 1972 a branch of the US Department of Health, Education and Welfare surveyed 25 communities where fossil-fuel burning space heaters were in use. Air sampling was done in homes and blood sampling of children was done as they arrived at their nursery schools, kindergartens, elementary schools, etc. Out of 2,229 children tested for carbon monoxide levels, 22.5 per cent had levels of 3 per cent or more. Readings were found as high as 8 per cent. Of the 1,820 homes tested, over 16 per cent had concentrations of carbon monoxide of 10 parts per million (ppm) or more.

Smoking constitutes the greatest source of exposure to carbon monoxide, sine the mean level for smokers was more than four times the level for non-smokers (up to 7 per cent carboxyhaemoglobin in the blood). Sidestream smoke from cigarettes contains two and a half times more carbon monoxide than inhaled smoke.

Outdoors in a city air is not so ‘fresh’, as we all know, due to power station emissions and motor exhaust fumes. Typical carbon monoxide levels on the street are around 10 to 20 ppm and may reach 100 ppm in traffic queues and congested areas such as enclosed car parks. Cardiac symptoms such as raised blood-pressure and speeded pulse start at ambient levels of around 75 ppm.

[Robsyuk]

You using a water additive with anti this and anti that also lubing quality's

Ive lived in the house for 3yrs and never filled the systems with anything - the tanks have ball cocks (great words)that work and fill them with water to about 2/3rds full. Ill get a pic shortly...

[Robsyuk]

Pics:
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5705/img0447dy.jpg
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/6840/img0448ns.jpg
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/4255/img0449x.jpg
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/9035/img0450mj.jpg

It does have as union above and below it to issolate the water and I did think it looked fairly easy to undo. My only thing is the wires comming out of it. I haven't looked to much into it as its like the north pole in here - so much for global warming! but they look hard wired.

fired it back up this morning after 8hrs of it cooling down and same noises, i felt the pipes around it and although I could feel a small vibration I don't think water is moving at all...

I'd rather someone else tackle it then me. Things always seem to get worse when I do things...

[Dom]

Hey Rob - I used this guy for my central heating install - he's fairly local to you and has had plenty of good feedback on the various trade websites. He didn't try and rip me off either and knows his stuff

Heating and Bathroom specialist in Northamptonshire, Buckinghamshire, Oxfordshire : S J J Plumbing and Heating

[MSG]

Changing the pump is nothing more than changing a pump on a car engine for example, probably a lot easier than on car, shut off the top and bottom valves that looks like the tap things, this will prevent the entire water from the system leaking away, many installations do not have isolating valves for the pump and one then has to block of the valves fitted at the tanks and drain the sytem and then refill and bleed !

You just need to make sure your pump couplings are of the correct sizes, most are 1-1/2(one & half BSP) they are the ones you see look big and narrow in height, a fibre or a rubber washer is fitted inside the couplings, save these as many new motors don't come with these washers! without it it is going to be a definite leak!

Once connected, and tightened up open the two isolating valves and the syetm is self bleeding through vertical pipes, but any bubbles that may get trapped in horizontal pipe sections may cause some problem later on so you can bleed it out through the radiotors as they are more likely to get trapped there due to water flowing.

[8valve-craig]

I forgot how much fun plumbing was..... Diagnosing faulty components, Pumps, Airlocks, Broken diaphrams etc is a lot like working on a vauxhall.....

[MSG]

I forgot how much fun plumbing was..... Diagnosing faulty components, Pumps, Airlocks, Broken diaphrams etc is a lot like working on a vauxhall.....

of course it is, I would never for as long as I live call any experts to fix my problems, don't need to get ripped by the professionals who are in most probability a little less competent, and bodgers, carry inappropriate tools, how many plumbers I have seen take to monkey wrencehs when they should be usinga proper open end spanners and chew corners and damage chrome on large nuts and bolts only receipe for rust!

[jamied]

Rob if you get stuck give me a shout I'm sure I can pop down to have a look.

[anniman1]

right if your going to change the pump just buy a grundfos. they are by far the best.
by the sounds of it and looking at the age of that pump, its about 30 years old and has done well to last, your cold feed is choked and your pumps running dry. your cold feed is a neutral point where rust from the radiators gets dropped off. this eventually chokes the feed pipe and water evaporates up the open vent leaving the water level to drop when you bleed the radiators. you can double check this by bleeding a radiator. if the air hissing or water stops coming out then thats that.

Looking in your tanks will show a water level as its no where to go so this wont tell you anything. if you do want to change the pump close both valves either side the give them a nip up. i dont think its going to be easy to unscrew the nuts given the lentgh of time they look like they've been on. if you cant get them off then use a screwdriver and hammer and hit the nut on the apex. it makes the brass and jump off the thread all the way round and turns it at the same time, use only rubber washers to replace. the wiring is the same, just three wires and they are marked.

Clearing a choked cold feed can be messy and time consuming needing to cut the pipe and join again or replacing and i would leave it up to the proffesionals. only use a heating engineer and not a plumber as they can get in a right mess. i cant see a choked cold feed costing more than 2 hrs labour max

[anniman1]

MSG some good advice offered there for a change